And there are many places in this country where they have successful pay to play programs and families who can’t afford it, don’t have to pay, and in some cases none have to pay because the fund raise and cover all the fees. It has also, in some places, brought enough awareness to the costs involved that the community increased their attendance and the some sports programs are even now profitable. As far as, I paid the same, my kid should play as much as everyone else, where don’t we have that mentality now? Paying for extracur items is the same as paying for other kids clothing. We better add in the budget to make sure each kid has at least five $50 Hollister tshirts so they aren’t looked upon as lower class. I see no difference. We need to move back to private charity, hard work, fundraising and not gov’t handouts or tax levies for the things we WANT.
Sorry to keep this thread going but it is a fascinating discussion so here goes . . . Isn’t a government handout exactly what you are hoping for when you want the state to fund schools? Let’s face it it comes down to this: You feel you pay too much property taxes therefore you want the state to educate your community’s children. We have the option around here to do a lot of our shopping in MD so if sales taxes go up, we could just shop in MD. Now we are really getting a deal! Except in my opinion you’re probably not because now you loose any leverage and decision making you had left to the man behind the curtain: the state. Let’s face it everything that comes from the state has conditions attached to it. Maybe not now but everything you get from state and federal government comes with a condition . . . eventually. Isn’t this just the nanny state to the rescue because we for some reason feel we should not support our local schools locally?
Back on to the athletic thing, if we could build a good football program with a good pee-wee program, good coaching, lights, better concession stands, more seating, a little imagination in fund raising, etc., it may be possible to have the program fund itself.
Also I have a question I was hoping someone could answer: how do the state funding proposals calculate initial funding? I mean day one. Does every district get the same amount of money per student or does every district start based on that district’s current budget?
And there are many places in this country where they have successful pay to play programs and families who can’t afford it, don’t have to pay, and in some cases none have to pay because the fund raise and cover all the fees. It has also, in some places, brought enough awareness to the costs involved that the community increased their attendance and the some sports programs are even now profitable. As far as, I paid the same, my kid should play as much as everyone else, where don’t we have that mentality now? Paying for extracur items is the same as paying for other kids clothing. We better add in the budget to make sure each kid has at least five $50 Hollister tshirts so they aren’t looked upon as lower class. I see no difference. We need to move back to private charity, hard work, fundraising and not gov’t handouts or tax levies for the things we WANT.
Sorry to keep this thread going but it is a fascinating discussion so here goes . . . Isn’t a government handout exactly what you are hoping for when you want the state to fund schools? Let’s face it it comes down to this: You feel you pay too much property taxes therefore you want the state to educate your community’s children. We have the option around here to do a lot of our shopping in MD so if sales taxes go up, we could just shop in MD. Now we are really getting a deal! Except in my opinion you’re probably not because now you loose any leverage and decision making you had left to the man behind the curtain: the state. Let’s face it everything that comes from the state has conditions attached to it. Maybe not now but everything you get from state and federal government comes with a condition . . . eventually. Isn’t this just the nanny state to the rescue because we for some reason feel we should not support our local schools locally?
Back on to the athletic thing, if we could build a good football program with a good pee-wee program, good coaching, lights, better concession stands, more seating, a little imagination in fund raising, etc., it may be possible to have the program fund itself.
Also I have a question I was hoping someone could answer: how do the state funding proposals calculate initial funding? I mean day one. Does every district get the same amount of money per student or does every district start based on that district’s current budget?
I don’t think that it is a matter of wanting “the state to fund schools” it is a matter of us wanting what is our share of the state tax funding that we pay through state taxes to fund schools. The funding formula for state school funding is based on some ancient formula from 1991 that funnels the majority of state school funding to Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Scranton (someone correct me if I am wrong about that, Marge). That formula sends the majority of state school funding money to those areas and they have had negative growth since 1991, therefore in essense overfunding those urban area school districts while the areas of the state that are growing get the same funding received in 1991. Do a google search on property tax rates in Philly, Pittsburgh and Scranton and you will see that the tax rates there are much less because they are so well funded from the state level.
I don’t think that it is a matter of government welfare that we are looking for just a fair playing field. The problem is that state level politicians do not need our votes to get into office, so we just need to pay our state taxes and shut up. In 2004 the entire state was red (republican) except Harrisburg, Philly, Pittsburgh and Scranton, and the Dems still carried the state. They just don’t care about the urban areas IMHO.
And there are many places in this country where they have successful pay to play programs and families who can’t afford it, don’t have to pay, and in some cases none have to pay because the fund raise and cover all the fees. It has also, in some places, brought enough awareness to the costs involved that the community increased their attendance and the some sports programs are even now profitable. As far as, I paid the same, my kid should play as much as everyone else, where don’t we have that mentality now? Paying for extracur items is the same as paying for other kids clothing. We better add in the budget to make sure each kid has at least five $50 Hollister tshirts so they aren’t looked upon as lower class. I see no difference. We need to move back to private charity, hard work, fundraising and not gov’t handouts or tax levies for the things we WANT.
Sorry to keep this thread going but it is a fascinating discussion so here goes . . . Isn’t a government handout exactly what you are hoping for when you want the state to fund schools? Let’s face it it comes down to this: You feel you pay too much property taxes therefore you want the state to educate your community’s children. We have the option around here to do a lot of our shopping in MD so if sales taxes go up, we could just shop in MD. Now we are really getting a deal! Except in my opinion you’re probably not because now you loose any leverage and decision making you had left to the man behind the curtain: the state. Let’s face it everything that comes from the state has conditions attached to it. Maybe not now but everything you get from state and federal government comes with a condition . . . eventually. Isn’t this just the nanny state to the rescue because we for some reason feel we should not support our local schools locally?
Back on to the athletic thing, if we could build a good football program with a good pee-wee program, good coaching, lights, better concession stands, more seating, a little imagination in fund raising, etc., it may be possible to have the program fund itself.
Also I have a question I was hoping someone could answer: how do the state funding proposals calculate initial funding? I mean day one. Does every district get the same amount of money per student or does every district start based on that district’s current budget?
Don’t throw me on the state funding bandwagon, I never said I support that either. I believe that wouldn’t work either, but if they say they are going to fund a certain amount they should. I don’t believe a school tax should a property tax. I don’t believe in public education funded by taxpayers at all, but that’s beyond ever happening because we’ve become a nanny state who relies on the gov’t to do all these things for us. I can’t wait until they start mandating our health care (sarc, of course).
Isn’t a government handout exactly what you are hoping for when you want the state to fund schools? Let’s face it it comes down to this: You feel you pay too much property taxes therefore you want the state to educate your community’s children. We have the option around here to do a lot of our shopping in MD so if sales taxes go up, we could just shop in MD. Now we are really getting a deal! Except in my opinion you’re probably not because now you loose any leverage and decision making you had left to the man behind the curtain: the state. Let’s face it everything that comes from the state has conditions attached to it. Maybe not now but everything you get from state and federal government comes with a condition . . . eventually. Isn’t this just the nanny state to the rescue because we for some reason feel we should not support our local schools locally?
There is no government handout, it’s our money - anything that comes from the government we pay for in some form of taxes, whether it’s EIT, PA income tax, sales tax, etc.
Under HB 1275, there would be no increase in sales tax. It would broaden the base to include more services and purchases at the current rate, such as attorney fees and gym memberships, but does not raise the rate above six percent. Food and clothing currently exempt from sales tax would remain so. Utilities, health care and prescription drugs would also be exempt.
What leverage and decision making do you think we have now?
So much there. . . Marge, let me start by saying I pay the same millage rate and percent everyone else around here does. My wife is a stay at home mom because long before we had kids that’s what we decided was best for them. This is how we were both raised. This obviously puts some financial pressures on us and I’m obviously not going into those details especially since they are all too familiar with most folks. Knowing the growth of the area though the future increases in property taxes were obvious to us and to some degree we planned for it (as much as that was possible). A blind man could see it coming with a cane. So, no, I don’t like the property tax system either; it at least needs to be supplemented by some other methods and the state needs to get out of the districts’ hair and allow them to fund it any way they see fit. I posted just a few things I’d like to see earlier in this thread. I know I am paying much less than friends living in the Lehigh Valley who are paying almost 3x more than what I am paying for the equivalent. They knew that moving into the district and had no problem with it. There was a lot of opportunity there (not near as much as here so close to Baltimore) and some of the schools are like college campuses and academically are top notch. They wanted their children to play sports and be involved in other extracurricular activities. Some of these schools have the best H.S. Football and Basketball programs in the state. I also have friends and family in Carbon County. They pay 3x less than I do for some bigger homes even. The schools aren’t terrible but they are probably not as good as SESD. There is very little opportunity there now-a-days (or even when I was a kid) it seems most people up there are working in medical fields or for some level of local government if they are working at all. Though many of the retired folks in CC would like to see something done about property taxes, most in the area seem content or at the very least, it is not as big an issue as say gas and oil prices, prescription drug cost, or health care for even the older folks. Again, these are just the people I know and I have not seen any hard poling data from these areas. So it is my belief that if you really want to change the current system, in my opinion, you are going to have to convince these types of people across the state
A. Nothing in their district will change
B. The state will not impose any more contractual obligations on them
C. After the next election or the election after that, or the election after that, that money will not be diverted to Philly, Pittsburgh, LV, or Scranton
D. The state will not be able to force the districts into any decisions by threatening to withdrawal funds - even things like forcing smaller districts to consolidate to save money just as one example.
BevyJean, this is kind of where I’m coming from. I believe that most decisions should be local. I believe in public education and I believe the entire community should fund the schools. I believe the funding should be local and school boards should be elected locally. I consider myself a Libertarian (but definitely not a Republican) at the state and federal levels. I believe we are facing a crisis in democracy in this country and I would like to see it fixed by localities taking more power and decision making from the state and federal government. See, I don’t necessarily believe that the local taxes are too high, the federal government takes so much out of our paycheck that it is hard for democracy to flourish locally because there is no money left after the feds take it. Sometimes I think they want it that way. This is in fact why I started the podcast as a free public service, hoping to fairly discuss local issues and items of interest with knowledgeable and relevant guests; despite the rumors coming out of the two local school districts that it is somehow affiliated with certain third party organizations. As far as the schools go, I would go as far as saying I’d like to see local history and government classes in addition to what they offer now. This is also what I think makes this topic and thread and all your participation so interesting and important. I’m thinking the process interest me as much or more than the subject.
markG, you kind of hit the nail on the head with the state funding going to the larger urban areas. This is my point exactly, no matter how the law is written today. Tomorrow, the money (our money) will always end up there. This is why I think it is a bad idea to bring the state in at such a large level.
Also I’m not exactly sure I believe that they can pay for it based on an expanded sales tax. More power to them if they could, I just don’t believe it yet. Thanks all or responding.
Jason- I do agree with some of the things you said, it certainly would make it easier if our tax burdens from the fed and state were lower, so we could invest more locally. And if it were true that there would be local control, then that would make it even better. But no matter how many times you think you have local control, there are many more where you don’t. You have the elected school board who make promises about being fiscally responsible, then they get the seats and what do we get.... paving emergency exit roads, installing $3000 remote climate control systems, approving new sports teams, and just wait until the teacher’s contract comes in, I believe we will get the shaft on that again and whatever the union demand is, will get signed because we don’t want to lose any of our great teachers to neighboring districts. Please tell me what you get for your local control?
Local control is a fantastic idea. Too bad it is just a pipe dream. In an age of apathy from voters and residents, much of what happens at the local level is either abdicated to the state or federal government, or the decisions are made by meglomaniacs that want to be in charge. We have gone too far from the concept of a citizen representative. The best kind of representative is one that doesnt nominate themeselves, is elected by the people, and after serving thier term, wants to go home. But with such an incredible re-election rate in this country, it is almost impossible for any kind of turnover.
So much there. . . Marge, let me start by saying I pay the same millage rate and percent everyone else around here does. My wife is a stay at home mom because long before we had kids that’s what we decided was best for them. This is how we were both raised. This obviously puts some financial pressures on us and I’m obviously not going into those details especially since they are all too familiar with most folks. Knowing the growth of the area though the future increases in property taxes were obvious to us and to some degree we planned for it (as much as that was possible). A blind man could see it coming with a cane. So, no, I don’t like the property tax system either; it at least needs to be supplemented by some other methods and the state needs to get out of the districts’ hair and allow them to fund it any way they see fit. I posted just a few things I’d like to see earlier in this thread. I know I am paying much less than friends living in the Lehigh Valley who are paying almost 3x more than what I am paying for the equivalent. They knew that moving into the district and had no problem with it. There was a lot of opportunity there (not near as much as here so close to Baltimore) and some of the schools are like college campuses and academically are top notch. They wanted their children to play sports and be involved in other extracurricular activities. Some of these schools have the best H.S. Football and Basketball programs in the state. I also have friends and family in Carbon County. They pay 3x less than I do for some bigger homes even. The schools aren’t terrible but they are probably not as good as SESD. There is very little opportunity there now-a-days (or even when I was a kid) it seems most people up there are working in medical fields or for some level of local government if they are working at all. Though many of the retired folks in CC would like to see something done about property taxes, most in the area seem content or at the very least, it is not as big an issue as say gas and oil prices, prescription drug cost, or health care for even the older folks. Again, these are just the people I know and I have not seen any hard poling data from these areas. So it is my belief that if you really want to change the current system, in my opinion, you are going to have to convince these types of people across the state
A. Nothing in their district will change
B. The state will not impose any more contractual obligations on them
C. After the next election or the election after that, or the election after that, that money will not be diverted to Philly, Pittsburgh, LV, or Scranton
D. The state will not be able to force the districts into any decisions by threatening to withdrawal funds - even things like forcing smaller districts to consolidate to save money just as one example.
BevyJean, this is kind of where I’m coming from. I believe that most decisions should be local. I believe in public education and I believe the entire community should fund the schools. I believe the funding should be local and school boards should be elected locally. I consider myself a Libertarian (but definitely not a Republican) at the state and federal levels. I believe we are facing a crisis in democracy in this country and I would like to see it fixed by localities taking more power and decision making from the state and federal government. See, I don’t necessarily believe that the local taxes are too high, the federal government takes so much out of our paycheck that it is hard for democracy to flourish locally because there is no money left after the feds take it. Sometimes I think they want it that way. This is in fact why I started the podcast as a free public service, hoping to fairly discuss local issues and items of interest with knowledgeable and relevant guests; despite the rumors coming out of the two local school districts that it is somehow affiliated with certain third party organizations. As far as the schools go, I would go as far as saying I’d like to see local history and government classes in addition to what they offer now. This is also what I think makes this topic and thread and all your participation so interesting and important. I’m thinking the process interest me as much or more than the subject.
markG, you kind of hit the nail on the head with the state funding going to the larger urban areas. This is my point exactly, no matter how the law is written today. Tomorrow, the money (our money) will always end up there. This is why I think it is a bad idea to bring the state in at such a large level.
Also I’m not exactly sure I believe that they can pay for it based on an expanded sales tax. More power to them if they could, I just don’t believe it yet. Thanks all or responding.
Jason,
Wanna get on the ballot? We are on the same page!
My thought, which I have mentioned on this site several times is that we need to use the power of economies of scale and consolidate school districts. Eliminate school boards as budget decision makers, and hire a CEO and CFO and make them accountable for their decisions. We should not have a $40 million + budget in the hands of amateurs (no offense to the board). How many companies in York County have $40 million budgets? That is a tremendous amount of money and someone that gets a paycheck should be accountable for how it is spent. SESD, Southern and Central at a minimum should combine. One Superintendent and staff, not 3. Consolidate purchasing, grounds & facilities maintenance. I know that they combine now on book purchases and office supplies in some cases, but there is power in real bulk purchasing.
Like your family, we planned on tax increases, but the increases that we are being told to absorb are insane! As long as we maintain the status quo without making noise nothing will change.
OK, the simple solution is to DEMAND of our state legislators that they vote to eliminate the school property tax entirely and all accompanying “nuisance” taxes! House Bill 1275 does that (with a slight increase in the sales tax and in the personal income tax). It also VASTLY simplifies tax return completion and provides funding from EVERY person who buys or sells in Pennsylvania, thus spreading the burden to EVERYONE and not just to property owners.
Politicians will argue that this concept is not feasible and could never work, BUT, the bottom line is that their comments are simply subterfuge so they can continue to play their self-serving political games!
School Property Tax Elimination WILL work, given state legislators who are willing to do their jobs!
Sorry to keep this thread going but it is a fascinating discussion so here goes . . . Isn’t a government handout exactly what you are hoping for when you want the state to fund schools? Let’s face it it comes down to this: You feel you pay too much property taxes therefore you want the state to educate your community’s children. We have the option around here to do a lot of our shopping in MD so if sales taxes go up, we could just shop in MD. Now we are really getting a deal! Except in my opinion you’re probably not because now you loose any leverage and decision making you had left to the man behind the curtain: the state. Let’s face it everything that comes from the state has conditions attached to it. Maybe not now but everything you get from state and federal government comes with a condition . . . eventually. Isn’t this just the nanny state to the rescue because we for some reason feel we should not support our local schools locally?
