Southern York County Life

ksasma - 30 June 2009 11:35 AM

Please keep in mind that the ZHB does NOT have the final say in the matter. We have a full recommendation from the planning commission in favor of the project, unfortunately they have no legislative power, but if in fact were are denied again, Borough Council members can make a motion to intervene and overthrow that decision. If that does not happen we still have the appeals process, which at that point I have faith that in front of an objective judge the morality of the issue will be removed and the facts will be used for a decision. So for any naysayers out there don’t write me off just yet!

I’m not sure where you got the information that the Borough Council can overthrow the decision of the ZHB.  That is not true.  They can appeal the decision to court, but they cannot overturn a decision by the ZHB.  You always have the option to appeal the decision of ZHB to the courts.  If their decision is not based on the requirements of the ordinance, there is a good chance that the courts will overturn the decision.  Also,generally, the planning commission can only make a recommendation and does not have ANY authority at all.  The ZHB (and Borough Council for that matter) has the right to disregard any recommendation made by the PC.

You need to have the support of the citizens of Fawn Grove Borough behind you.  They are the ones who will have “standing” in the eyes of the court, not just anyone on this forum.

I applaude your attempts to start up your own business and wish you much success!

I appreciate your kind words and as I have stated before “unfortunately they have no legislative power” referring to the PC, I agree and have not said otherwise. However I disagree with the position on the Councils abilities (they also have the ability to remove a ZHB member(s) with prior written notice). My assertions come to me from several legal councils (including my acting attorney) that serve in York area municipal positions. However please note (for clarification) that I am not claiming that any intervention WILL happen nor has any one said such, nor am I threatening in any way but merely stating it as a possibility. I respect with full disclosure the people of Fawn Grove and realize their support is pivotal hence the reason for my starting this thread. This forum is an avenue to reach all audiences in my humble request for support, not as a subliminal attack on any individual or entity.

Since I work in the land use planning field and am a member of a local planning commission, I am VERY familiar with the MPC.  I reiterate that the Borough Council does not have the right to overturn a decision by the Zoning Hearing Board.  Yes, they do have the right to remove a member, but the decision stands unless overturned by the courts.  The MPC is very specific regarding such decisions and who has the right to do what.

Here is what the MPC says:  “Section 909.1 Jurisdiction - (a) the zoning hearing board shall have exclusive jurisdiction to hear and render final adjudications in the following matters:…

(3) Appeals from the determination of the zoning officer....
(5) Applications for variances from the terms of the zoning ordinance ...
(6) Applications for special exceptions under the zoning ordinance ...”

Since I don’t know what type of decision you are applying for, e.g., variance, special exception or an appeal from the decision of the Zoning Officer, I included the language for each.  Also, I’m not trying to be an attorney, but this is what I do for a living and am very, very familiar with the planning code and decisions that have been handed down by the courts.  Also - I am not disparaging your attorney in anyway, but not all attorneys are familiar with land use law.  I have heard some attorneys just give outright wrong information with regard to land use planning. 

Again, I hope you are successful in your attempts to open a microbrewery and I’m just trying to be helpful.  I know many people that will be happy to see one in the southern end of the county!

Quit the jibber jabber - BRING ON THE BREW!!!! Good luck to you!

What he said, lets get ‘er done.

Oh and if you need a taste tester, I am available for an extermely small fee, or for free and a bag of pretzels.

ksasma - 30 June 2009 03:12 PM

Since I work in the land use planning field and am a member of a local planning commission, I am VERY familiar with the MPC.  I reiterate that the Borough Council does not have the right to overturn a decision by the Zoning Hearing Board.  Yes, they do have the right to remove a member, but the decision stands unless overturned by the courts.  The MPC is very specific regarding such decisions and who has the right to do what.

Here is what the MPC says:  “Section 909.1 Jurisdiction - (a) the zoning hearing board shall have exclusive jurisdiction to hear and render final adjudications in the following matters:…

(3) Appeals from the determination of the zoning officer....
(5) Applications for variances from the terms of the zoning ordinance ...
(6) Applications for special exceptions under the zoning ordinance ...”

Since I don’t know what type of decision you are applying for, e.g., variance, special exception or an appeal from the decision of the Zoning Officer, I included the language for each.  Also, I’m not trying to be an attorney, but this is what I do for a living and am very, very familiar with the planning code and decisions that have been handed down by the courts.  Also - I am not disparaging your attorney in anyway, but not all attorneys are familiar with land use law.  I have heard some attorneys just give outright wrong information with regard to land use planning. 

Again, I hope you are successful in your attempts to open a microbrewery and I’m just trying to be helpful.  I know many people that will be happy to see one in the southern end of the county!

Thanks again for your input, I will take it in consideration with everything that is transpiring.

chrisjames_71 - 29 June 2009 03:30 PM

AWINITA - 29 June 2009 03:14 PM

snip...And from what I heard the one person who raised the highest stink about it doesn’t even live in Fawn Grove they just own property here.

Well then, he has every right to express his issues then. Y’all just need to get more folks from Fanw Grove to show up and drown his opinions out

Don’t you think anyone in FG deserves a voice… especially if they own property!!!
Why should anyone who doens’t own property be allowed to talk at any meeting....??? It’s not effecting their property
T

[

[Since I don’t know what type of decision you are applying for, e.g., variance, special exception or an appeal from the decision of the Zoning Officer, I included the language for each.  Also, I’m not trying to be an attorney, but this is what I do for a living and am very, very familiar with the planning code and decisions that have been handed down by the courts.  Also - I am not disparaging your attorney in anyway, but not all attorneys are familiar with land use law.  I have heard some attorneys just give outright wrong information with regard to land use planning. 

Again, I hope you are successful in your attempts to open a microbrewery and I’m just trying to be helpful.  I know many people that will be happy to see one in the southern end of the county!

Just what we need another place for Kids to hang out and get drunk???? Like the partys they have there now....
Come to the meeting and say NO.. who wants it so close to our schools.... COME AND SAY NO! 

The town has no good water supply now.... NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

southcountybrewing - 30 June 2009 01:51 PM

ksasma - 30 June 2009 11:35 AM

Please keep in mind that the ZHB does NOT have the final say in the matter. We have a full recommendation from the planning commission in favor of the project, unfortunately they have no legislative power, but if in fact were are denied again, Borough Council members can make a motion to intervene and overthrow that decision. If that does not happen we still have the appeals process, which at that point I have faith that in front of an objective judge the morality of the issue will be removed and the facts will be used for a decision. So for any naysayers out there don’t write me off just yet!

I’m not sure where you got the information that the Borough Council can overthrow the decision of the ZHB.  That is not true.  They can appeal the decision to court, but they cannot overturn a decision by the ZHB.  You always have the option to appeal the decision of ZHB to the courts.  If their decision is not based on the requirements of the ordinance, there is a good chance that the courts will overturn the decision.  Also,generally, the planning commission can only make a recommendation and does not have ANY authority at all.  The ZHB (and Borough Council for that matter) has the right to disregard any recommendation made by the PC.

You need to have the support of the citizens of Fawn Grove Borough behind you.  They are the ones who will have “standing” in the eyes of the court, not just anyone on this forum.

I applaude your attempts to start up your own business and wish you much success!

GET OUT OF TOWN!

southcountybrewing - 30 June 2009 01:51 PM

ksasma - 30 June 2009 11:35 AM

Please keep in mind that the ZHB does NOT have the final say in the matter. We have a full recommendation from the planning commission in favor of the project, unfortunately they have no legislative power, but if in fact were are denied again, Borough Council members can make a motion to intervene and overthrow that decision. If that does not happen we still have the appeals process, which at that point I have faith that in front of an objective judge the morality of the issue will be removed and the facts will be used for a decision. So for any naysayers out there don’t write me off just yet!

I’m not sure where you got the information that the Borough Council can overthrow the decision of the ZHB.  That is not true.  They can appeal the decision to court, but they cannot overturn a decision by the ZHB.  You always have the option to appeal the decision of ZHB to the courts.  If their decision is not based on the requirements of the ordinance, there is a good chance that the courts will overturn the decision.  Also,generally, the planning commission can only make a recommendation and does not have ANY authority at all.  The ZHB (and Borough Council for that matter) has the right to disregard any recommendation made by the PC.

You need to have the support of the citizens of Fawn Grove Borough behind you.  They are the ones who will have “standing” in the eyes of the court, not just anyone on this forum.

Horses - 01 July 2009 08:47 PM

chrisjames_71 - 29 June 2009 03:30 PM

AWINITA - 29 June 2009 03:14 PM

snip...And from what I heard the one person who raised the highest stink about it doesn’t even live in Fawn Grove they just own property here.

Well then, he has every right to express his issues then. Y’all just need to get more folks from Fanw Grove to show up and drown his opinions out

Don’t you think anyone in FG deserves a voice… especially if they own property!!!
Why should anyone who doens’t own property be allowed to talk at any meeting....??? It’s not effecting their property
T

Your question really doesn’t make any sense to me. You say if they own property they should talk and thats what I said as well. And people who don’t own property are still residences of Fawn Grove and still pay taxes so they get a voice as well. If you think they shouldn’t be allowed to voice their opinion, then you are quite wrong.

[quote author="Horses" date="1246514080] Just what we need another place for Kids to hang out and get drunk???? Like the partys they have there now....
Come to the meeting and say NO.. who wants it so close to our schools.... COME AND SAY NO! 

The town has no good water supply now.... NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Accoring to the original post:  “I am intending to construct and operate a small Microbrewery that will distribute to 15 counties on PA, and eventually New York and Maryland. Open container alcohol will NOT be served and Fawn will remain a “dry town”

Horses - 01 July 2009 08:47 PM

chrisjames_71 - 29 June 2009 03:30 PM

AWINITA - 29 June 2009 03:14 PM

snip...And from what I heard the one person who raised the highest stink about it doesn’t even live in Fawn Grove they just own property here.

Well then, he has every right to express his issues then. Y’all just need to get more folks from Fanw Grove to show up and drown his opinions out

Don’t you think anyone in FG deserves a voice… especially if they own property!!!
Why should anyone who doens’t own property be allowed to talk at any meeting....??? It’s not effecting their property
T

Yes I do that’s what I said in my reply ...... my bad for not thinking threw what I wrote in the first place. They are still a citizen of Fawn Grove and have the same right to voice an opinion as property owners.

Horses - 01 July 2009 08:54 PM

[Since I don’t know what type of decision you are applying for, e.g., variance, special exception or an appeal from the decision of the Zoning Officer, I included the language for each.  Also, I’m not trying to be an attorney, but this is what I do for a living and am very, very familiar with the planning code and decisions that have been handed down by the courts.  Also - I am not disparaging your attorney in anyway, but not all attorneys are familiar with land use law.  I have heard some attorneys just give outright wrong information with regard to land use planning. 

Again, I hope you are successful in your attempts to open a microbrewery and I’m just trying to be helpful.  I know many people that will be happy to see one in the southern end of the county!

Just what we need another place for Kids to hang out and get drunk???? Like the partys they have there now....
Come to the meeting and say NO.. who wants it so close to our schools.... COME AND SAY NO! 

The town has no good water supply now.... NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

It is a brewery it is NOT a bar or liquor store , kids are not going to fork out that much money for beer when they can get a 40 down at the local Saubels for a 1/4 of the price if that or free beer from their parents refrigerator. *ROLLING EYES* .... that’s not a legit reason not to have a microbrewery it’s a “cop-out” . As for the water supply I heard that if it became a problem the person who wants to start said he would bring water in at his own expense !?!?! Don’t know if that’s correct or not just what I heard.....

I may regret responding to this post, but.... I refuse to accept libel and slander on a public forum not to mention see a thread disrespectfully hi-jacked.  I encourage anyone to voice their right to free speech, but keep in mind that presenting false and entirely subjective information and opinion (a.k.a. knee-jerk reaction) is not a positive way to establish grounds for argument. The general public tends to frown upon it and a legislative body almost never tolerates it. In response to your post(s) please clarify, as I have, the following:

Just what we need another place for Kids to hang out and get drunk????

Please specify said locations, specifically businesses and public property that “kids hang out and get drunk”.

I have CLEARLY stated that not only must my proposed business comply with state and federal law to NOT sell to anyone under that age of 21, Ive also stated that my business WILL NOT BY LAW allow on-site open container consumption.

Once again this proposed business is NOT a bar, restaurant, tavern, speak easy, or any other comparable figment of ones imagination.

Like the partys ( noun: parties sp?) they have there now....

Please specify “there”. Is this a general reference to the town of Fawn Grove or a specific location?

Come to the meeting and say NO.. who wants it so close to our schools.... COME AND SAY NO!

We meet and EXCEED all state and local zoning requirements of distancing to public buildings.

The town has no good water supply now.... NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Not only is this an unqualified statement, it is a moot and erroneous discussion. We have far worse problems like nitrates and sewage from multi-resident unit discharge. Please understand that to deny any entity the right to build or operate within the fawn borough limits on the basis of water usage would be grounds for a moratorium on any new water usage of any type. That means housing, schooling, public and private swimming pools, etc.... The pretense that Fawn Borough businesses and residents pull their water from a magic single reservoir is absurd and preposterous. We have provisions in the MPC and Fawn ordinance that deal with this topic (not deny usage) and at that, only under drought conditions are studies and restriction implemented. I also have Clearly (on record) stated that I would agree to truck in process water to ELIMINATE any impact to Fawns Water supply.  Now, to continue to discuss this “water” topic one would have to question ones sanity.

With that said I have scrupulously examined and weighed the issues that concern many. I value like any other resident of a small town the qualities that define it as such and would never do anything that I thought for a second would bode ill for Fawn. I own a home in Fawn, my family does as well. We have taken an aging and fatigued industrial property (formally a saw mill) and through literally thousands of man hours and countless dollars turned it into a positive place for commerce that as a whole employs well over 15 people, increased surrounding property values (tax records can prove that) not to mention offers an array of business types. I only wish to add to that greatness. I have spent the last year and a half developing the countless aspects of a microbrewery and its impact and have solutions for those aspects. It is a legitimate profession like any other and deserves respect just the same. My intent for this venture is not entirely out of self interest, I work in an industry that has been sabotaged by one of the worst accounts of greed and irresponsibility in many many years. I brewed beer at home for leisure only to developed a knack and love for it. This artisinal passion has culminated into a potential solution for my current career challenges and how to provide for my wife and my potential families future. Which brings me to to my next point, instead of arguing whether the sky is blue or gray?, is beer good or bad? when will we as a society accept that personal responsibility will always supersede the guilty gratification of condemnation over something one may not understand or agree with. Once again I humbly ask for support not even specific to a business type but rather to a fair try under laws, both man made and bestowed, that govern us all, not subjective and malicious opinion. I appreciate everyone’s time and input and will leave it at that.

Thank you again