Harford County, MD… 02-03 School year, cost per student was $6920.  Over $2000/student difference.  50 schools, 50 Principals, 72 Asst Pricipals, 1 (I repeat, 1) Superintendant!!!.  Though, $6920 still seems like a crazy amount to me, first comparison, shows county run system costs less.

http://www.hcps.org/AboutUs/Facts/LargeFacts04-05.pdf

Forgot, here’s where I got the info.  Also, that amount includes Harford Vo-Tech and John Archer School, which is for those with special needs.

pboin - 06 February 2006 01:08 PM

So, if 2002 spending was $9,062 per student, we’re paying $181,240 to teach basic skills to a classroom of 20 kids!  (And remember, that’s four years ago .) That’s insane, and I don’t care if the insanity is comparable to other counties, states, or whatever—it doesn’t make it right.

Pbion- That’s what I really wanted to say, but I’m trying to be the kinder, gentler Bevy Jean.

I never said it was okay to cost that much per student. I was just showing where we fit in compared to the rest of the area. Comparisons do matter because they show you how someone else does it for less or by getting better results.

Try to keep the cost in perspective though… the numbers reflect all the budgeted costs divided over the entire student population. This means salaries, benefits, building debt, bond funding, insurance, transportation, materials, supplies, activities, maintenance, etc. It is the whole ball of wax.

One could say that it is insane that a new car costs $35,000 or that a new house around here goes for over $400,000. One could say it is insane that a manufacturing worker at Harley-Davidson (union) makes over $20 per hour while the supplier sending them parts from just down the street only pays $9 per hour (non-union). One could say that it is insane to pay $265 per credit hour at York College but only pay $165 at HACC. How much does that education really cost? How much does that car or motorcycle really cost if you dump union wages? How much does that house really cost to build?

The reason I showed the comparisons was so that we could understand where SESD stands and how others are doing. I am not supporting SESD. Heck, I think we pay too much for what we get. The question is, can we learn from others that are doing it for less? That is at least a start. If you want to change the system, you have to take small steps. You are not going to go into the SESD budget tomorrow and whack away at costs when a large percentage are contractual (salaries, benefits, special ed, transportation, etc). You have to find ways to be more efficient with what you spend and when the contracts renew, work to renew them with better terms. At the same time, beat up Harrisburg to fix the system of funding.

Transportation costs seem to be really high when compared to the rest of the county, but remember that they are probably based on the miles travelled and SESD is one of the largest (in area) in the county.  It would not be surprising to discover that not all busses are filled because of the distances travelled to pick up students - I know that some students are already on the bus for an hour to get to the high school.

As someone who used to drive a school bus for SYCSD I can tell you that the transportation director has to look at many factors in determining the bus routes and make them as efficient as possible.  I used to pick up kindergarteners at noon and transport them to school - the first kid on the bus was on the bus for an hour before we got to school - because of the circuitous route I had to take to pick up other kindergarteners - there were about 25 kids on a full size bus!  Too many for a mini-bus and not enough kids in that area to justify sending 2 busses.  I also drove special needs kids who needed smaller forms of transportation.  Then you also have those students who attend other schools - St. Joes in Dallastown for example.  SESD must supply transportation to them also.

Unfortunately, I don’t see the cost of fuel going down anytime soon, and that plays a major factor in transportation costs.  The drivers are usually paid per run (or shift) and generally not on an hourly basis, except for maybe trips (such as athletic events, field trips, etc.) Its been about 11 years since I drove a bus, so my information may be out of date, and I did not drive for SESD which uses several different bus companies (or they did at one time).  SYC uses only one bus company so my information is based on that system.

alex some of your thinking is in line, but what experience do you have in running a large corporation like a school for example.  what schools are performing better than SESD for less?  i believe i read a post where you stated that you didn’t have children.  so you believe it is fair to have all of our children educated by non-professional teachers.  you are comparing apples to oranges in your comparison of HACC to York College.  if HACC offer a various amount of degree option then their cost would go up as well.  they are small operating out of a small building give them 2 thousand more students and see what happens.

what exactly do you think costs too much?  the teachers who aided you in achieving your current status in society? are they over paid where do the teacher rank in the county?  their benefits, do you have benefits with your job?  do you get sick days, urgent business, continuing education paid for, salary increases for experience and education.  Act 48 states that an educator must obtain so many credits in a five year period to maintain their certification.  also states the employer should aid in the cost of qualifying credits.  the state doesn’t give more money for this either.  the transportation, the supreme court stated a public school has to provide transportation for its students whether they go to their school or porochial.  special ed, federal government says you must provide the least restrictive environment, so staff are needed as wrap around to aid these special needs students in the regular ed setting, at $8 an hour per kid. 

what exactly would you cut out?  it would be nice if we could get back to the era where one single sport would pay the bills for all the rest like boys basketball did in the 90’s. 

i often see eye to eye with you but in turn i don’t want to see our district turned to crap because we want to save a couple hundred bucks.  just like little ole HACC things are cheaper cause they’re smaller, the bigger they get the more it will cost.  same thing happened here.

the problem is the federal govt does increase funding every time they add a new mandate to the books.  no raise in funding for the students with disabilities act, idea, or for no child left behind.

To BikerTrash…

I think you misunderstand my posting. I am not advocating cutting teachers to cheaper teachers. I am not advocating letting non professionals run our schools. As far as corporations are concerned, I have worked side by side with top executives in some very large corporations over the years, trying to find ways to do things more effectively and for less money, but without cutting corners.

I was just showing what the figures were that are out there for public review. I don’t know if we can get better for what we have. It could also be a demographic issue for all we know. There are many variables.

The biggest problem I see is that the system needs to be repaired/changed so that we can move forward without fear of losing what we have. We need to maintain education at the level it is and get better if we can. I do not think any programs should be cut from school if they provide a direct benefit to the students. I feel that I got a very good education from SESD from 1975-1988. I was given the chance to excel, get involved in advanced education options, participate in sports and theater. I had great teachers that were dedicated to making sure we got ahead in life. Yes, there were some that were there to collect a check, but that seemed to be more towards the end of school for me plus with a younger crowd coming in.

I know the government has made things difficult by mandating without supporting the mandates. No, I do not have kids, but I know many people that do and I work with many of the youth in this area. I don’t want any of them shortchanged on their education.

What I threw out there were just comments to ponder. I don’t have a solution to this mess… I have ideas though. The trick is sorting through all the ideas to find the one or combination that works the best for the majority. Not everyone will be happy with the choice that comes down from Harrisburg, but such is life. Right now, they have not offered anything that is even remotely beneficial to the majority.

My comments about insane prices were in regards to a previous posting by pboin stating that the cost per student was insane. I was trying to show other things that could be deemed insane when there were other options… it is all a matter of perspective I think. I personally don’t think $10K per student is insane if they are getting a top notch education. What is insane is when they get something in the middle of the road for more than someone gets for less. In other words, you can get a quality education without blowing the bank… it is a matter of spending smartly and fighting for what we are supposed to get.

if there are 1 sup, 50 prin, 72 asst prin, at 50 schools doesn’t that equal an average of 2.46 administrators per school on average.  SESD has less 1 sup, 1 asst sup, 6 prin, 3 asst prin at 6 buildings thats like 1.8 per building.  these county schools also have area supers too. you are not accounting for them, check your link it states 6 supts.  they are working with 316 million dollars to operate that system 8 high schools, a votech, and archer school.  if we broke that into districts like we have that would be 31.6 million a year per high plus their middles and elementary feeders.
i think our budget was 34 million.

the transportation is one factor that kills us, students can’t walk to the fawn campus, or elementary school.  so we have to pay for buses, whether kids ride or not.  red lion and other schools have a little different scenerio, their schools were placed in the most highly populated part of their district, we did not. 

i just don’t think there is an easy fix.  sales tax would help because then all those renters who have children help pay their share.